Curse

Carinae · Jul 07, 2008, 06:56 AM // 06:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Star Gazer

this ended when factions was released. I took a year long break because of it, and did not buy NF or Factions until the end of 06. Prophecies was great: you started up on a low level area, and gradually encountered difficult challenges. not to mention it took weeks (for those who actually played the missions and did the quests...no running and playing causually) to get to level 20. when factions came out, they might as well made the character creation screen start on level 20. Thinking about builds was already dead.

Oh, so no new builds were invented after the release of Factions. What you really mean is you gave up on builds after Factions. That is your problem. New builds are still being created to this day.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Star Gazer

I fail to see how I am bad at the game.

You're bad at the game because you can't exceed UB's performance with a normal build. It is true, however, that you fail to see this.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Star Gazer

I did get better. I grew from my W/E who used Meteor Shower and Fire Storm each time it recharged. I have been playing since the beginning, and obviously, I have had much time to learn and improve my game.

Keep going, there's apparently room for improvement. If you're truly interested in improving your game, stop using UB.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Star Gazer

The thing about UB that people dont understand is that its finally getting people to group and clear things fast.

That's called farming. There are only two reasons to speed clear an area: 1) farming, 2) record setting. You are clearly referencing farming, you admit it here:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Star Gazer

And yes, those who use UB to farm endgame areas do win.

You're trying to argue that you have a right to godmode. You do not.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Star Gazer

The thing that makes UB so appealing, is that us with time restrictions (aka, those with lives) can finally do end game content without having to leave the group high and dry.

Well, steroids make people play sports "better", but it's not generally allowed is it? You are trying to have your cake and eat it too. If you can pull it off, more power to you, but you aren't entitled to do this.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Star Gazer

this made me lol. i beat all campaigns on 10 characters without ursan. my warrior (primary) has 25 maxed titles now, 21 of which were there prior to GWEN.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Star Gazer

So, my characters prior to gwen having atleast 2 sets (8 chars by the way) of 15k "repulse you"

Quote:

Originally Posted by Star Gazer

You can swing your epeen next to those who get high scores on DDR or Guitar Hero: It doesn't impress me.

Apparently it does. Next time you post, try not to defeat yourself as you do it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Star Gazer

Oh wait, I hear that elitist attitude again.

You're just hearing yourself.

Quote:

Originally Posted by R.Shayne

I don’t think ANET should ever take that stand because it would mean fewer players and fewer players buying expansions. Like it or not, if you’re a veteran or elitist, we all need the casual, noobs, and newbies to keep buying the game or the server closes.

If that is the only option, they should close the servers immediately. If they are FORCED to dumb the game down so a monkey can play just keep the servers open, then they have clearly passed the point of remaining viable in any situation.

Inexperienced players, in any game, must "get better or quit". It's just the way it is, unless they enjoy failing, in that case keep playing.

Quote:

Originally Posted by R.Shayne

They are abusing the skill because it gets them to end reward faster or allows them to farm the most profitable areas.

Exactly. They are both clearly overpowered and need a nerf. There is no right to farm endgame areas in godmode.

Quote:

Originally Posted by R.Shayne

If they nerf UB then the only thing that will change is a new build will develop that these supposable bad players will learn to use

Of course a new build will eventually develop. Balance is a process, not a goal. New builds will be evaluated as they emerge. They may force future rebalances. This is the way things progress in GW. The only real issue here is why has it taken so long to nerf UB.

Tyla · Jul 07, 2008, 07:31 AM // 07:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Star Gazer

and....your point being? it doesnt seem like the "uncaring" is the minority here. I beleive its the elitests who want to have their stacks of ectos, slew of tormented weaons, and stacks of armbraces who are trying to impose a certain way to PvE. If thats your attitude, please bring that crap to PvP where it belongs.

I just had to quote this!

I guess I'm one of those "elitists" who is trying to impose a certain way to PvE. Oh, wait. Guess what? I don't farm nor have I ever obtained more than 100 ectos within the 2 years I have been playing this game.

People are not trying to "impose" a certain way to PvE. People in general already managed to do almost everything before GW:EN, and that abomination of a skill. Yes, I may seem like one of those people who want '05 GW back. I merely know godmode shouldn't exist in any game at all. If casual players were to complete missions such as Urgoz etc. they wouldn't be labeled "elite mission". They weren't designed for the casual player, and they were designed to be difficult and take time to complete.

upier · Jul 07, 2008, 07:48 AM // 07:48

Soul Reaping IS god mode for a caster.
Why the selective balance?

Abedeus · Jul 07, 2008, 08:04 AM // 08:04

Because you still need to kill things in order to crapfest high-energy skills xd Ursan powers itself. So does SF Sin.

upier · Jul 07, 2008, 08:45 AM // 08:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abedeus

Because you still need to kill things in order to crapfest high-energy skills xd Ursan powers itself. So does SF Sin.

Which translates to:
IF YOUR PARTY doesn't fail in PvE (fail to kill that is) - you (the necro NOT the whole party!) deserve UNLIMITED energy.

Ursan is a puppy compared to the beast that is SR.

Angelic Upstart · Jul 07, 2008, 09:06 AM // 09:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

.

Ursan is a puppy compared to the beast that is SR.

Cobblers.

Soul Reaping is a core Necro attribute, never has SR alone enabled anyone to steamroll the game in every area like Ursan does now.

upier · Jul 07, 2008, 09:32 AM // 09:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Angelic Upstart

Cobblers.

Soul Reaping is a core Necro attribute, never has SR alone enabled anyone to steamroll the game in every area like Ursan does now.

I don't see the difference.
SR enables people that should fail at this game to succeed.
Godmode.

Carinae · Jul 07, 2008, 09:52 AM // 09:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

Which translates to:
IF YOUR PARTY doesn't fail in PvE (fail to kill that is) - you (the necro NOT the whole party!) deserve UNLIMITED energy.

Stop trolling.

Since SR only triggers on a death, you would need to kill monsters at an unlimited rate to get SR to generate unlimited energy, now wouldn't you? If you're doing killing at that rate already, SR isn't really making that much of an impact, now is it? Unless you are referencing manufactured deaths via minions (in which case I would agree), you're being metaphorical for dramatic license.

It would seem that a multitude of other factors MUST be in play in order to get SR to feed back energy like this. Notwithstanding the fact that SR, as you know, has a timer on it.

You have this strange fascination with the fact that SR generates energy when a monster dies. You seem to ignore the various other primary attributes that function as unbound energy management.

Expertise - Free energy because you used a skill, bound only by how fast you can push a button.
Divine Favor - Ditto.
Leadership - Ditto.
Critical Strikes - Ditto.

These are all energy management attributes. Somehow in your mind, doing the work of killing a monster is easier than using a single skill, or autoattacking. Just stop with the mystical 'unlimited' stuff. They're ALL unlimited in terms of both rate and amount.

It's especially ironic that SR is the only one of these with a limiting mechanism in place, the timer.

Angelic Upstart · Jul 07, 2008, 09:57 AM // 09:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

I don't see the difference.
SR enables people that should fail at this game to succeed.
Godmode.

If that was the case then necros would have ran riot in every elite area all over the game, this is not the case.
Comparing SR to UB especially after the retarded timer applied to SR, is ridiculous.
SR is an attribute that came with the necro class, UB is an overpowered piece of shit that requires no thought, just mashing of the keyboard.

Lol, your claiming that SR enables people who fail at this game to suceed just indicates that you are trolling.
You should apply that logic to UB where it belongs.

around · Jul 07, 2008, 10:05 AM // 10:05

Quote:

If that was the case then necros would have ran riot in every elite area all over the game, this is not the case.

Sabway says hi.

Also, the fact that no-one is abusing the hell out of SR is more a testament to how bad PvE players are and not how 'bad' SR is.

Carinae · Jul 07, 2008, 10:19 AM // 10:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by spawnofebil

Sabway says hi.

The problem with Sabway is the 'sharing' of SR triggers combined with the manufacturing of deaths via minions, not the energy returned. I'll agree that this mechanism enables bad players to succeed. But we've already covered this fact and suggested closing both mechanisms.

If you're STILL generating unlimited energy, even with both of those shut down, then you're doing it with outside help.

Quote:

Originally Posted by spawnofebil

Also, the fact that no-one is abusing the hell out of SR is more a testament to how bad PvE players are and not how 'bad' SR is.

Show me a necro solo build that fuels itself off of SR. Surely such an almighty energy engine is being used to solo the entire game. What? It isn't? How can that be?

I'm guessing that you've left out the part of the equation regarding how much energy needed to be spent initially to get the death in the first place...which is what Upier did by shifting all the killing to the party....except in that case, the party is ALREADY killing at that rate and SR isn't having much of an impact either is it?

upier · Jul 07, 2008, 10:20 AM // 10:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carinae Dragonblood

Stop trolling.

Since SR only triggers on a death, you would need to kill monsters at an unlimited rate to get SR to generate unlimited energy, now wouldn't you? If you're doing killing at that rate already, SR isn't really making that much of an impact, now is it? Unless you are referencing manufactured deaths via minions (in which case I would agree), you're being metaphorical for dramatic license.

It would seem that a multitude of other factors MUST be in play in order to get SR to feed back energy like this. Notwithstanding the fact that SR, as you know, has a timer on it.

You have this strange fascination with the fact that SR generates energy when a monster dies. You seem to ignore the various other primary attributes that function as unbound energy management.

Expertise - Free energy because you used a skill, bound only by how fast you can push a button.
Divine Favor - Ditto.
Leadership - Ditto.
Critical Strikes - Ditto.

These are all energy management attributes. Somehow in your mind, doing the work of killing a monster is easier than using a single skill, or autoattacking. Just stop with the mystical 'unlimited' stuff. They're ALL unlimited in terms of both rate and amount.

It's especially ironic that SR is the only one of these with a limiting mechanism in place, the timer.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Angelic Upstart

If that was the case then necros would have ran riot in every elite area all over the game, this is not the case.
Comparing SR to UB especially after the retarded timer applied to SR, is ridiculous.
SR is an attribute that came with the necro class, UB is an overpowered piece of shit that requires no thought, just mashing of the keyboard.

Lol, your claiming that SR enables people who fail at this game to suceed just indicates that you are trolling.
You should apply that logic to UB where it belongs.

SR never taught a caster class how to manage their energy.
A caster class should be limited by it's energy.
A necro isn't (or better yet - it isn't comparatively to other classes.)
If you fail to see this - you are bad at this game.
Thus:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carinae Dragonblood

To that, I can only say: "Get better or quit". That's not the answer you want to hear, but it's the correct answer. It's the same answer you'd get on a Basketball or Football team. I'm sorry that you are in that situation, I know it sucks. EVERYONE who plays GuildWars has been in that situation. When we ALL started, we ALL sucked. We all got better at our own pace, some of us never did.

(Ohh and btw - SR was trashed because it was possible to create PvE-like conditions in PvP. So if PvE-like conditions are overpowered in PvP - then they are overpowered in PvE also.)

I am not saying that something like Ursan couldn't be considered godmode also. What I am saying is that if something warrants a nerf just because it is godmode - then SR NEEDS to get hit also.

Anyone coming here and saying that SR isn't godmode but Ursan is - is bad at this game.
L2P.

around · Jul 07, 2008, 10:23 AM // 10:23

Quote:

Show me a necro solo build that fuels itself off of SR. Surely such an almighty energy engine is being used to solo the entire game. What? It isn't? How can that be?

Last I heard GW was a team game.

Carinae · Jul 07, 2008, 10:46 AM // 10:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

SR never taught a caster class how to manage their energy.

Soul Reaping IS the energy management for Necros. Mesmers and Elementalists don't get e-management from their primary attribute...hence the need to e-manage via skills. You're point is invalid on these classes because of this.

Monks do get e-management from their primary, but it still needs to be augmented because they are covering the entire teams mistakes. They have a big job. Special case, your point is invalid.

Paragons (do you count them as casters?) get boo-koo energy from Leadership. You never mention them....

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

A caster class should be limited by it's energy.

They are. If they weren't all the solo builds would be necros. Outside of minions, if you're getting unlimited energy, you're already killing at an absurd rate.

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

If you fail to see this - you are bad at this game.

You definately fail to see that each class is unique, otherwise you wouldn't be essentially comparing SR and Fast Cast as e-management abilities.

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

(Ohh and btw - SR was trashed because it was possible to create PvE-like conditions in PvP.

You accidentally got something right on this point...

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

So if PvE-like conditions are overpowered in PvP - then they are overpowered in PvE also.)

...but then you blow it all here. You just refuse to acknowledge that PvE balance and PvP balance are entirely different beasts. To you 'balance is balance'. And it's just not true, there are different balancing goals between PvP and PvE. Something that's overpowered in PvP can be lackluster in PvE, and vice versa.

This is a PvE thread, so it focuses on PvE balance.

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

Anyone coming here and saying that SR isn't godmode but Ursan is - is bad at this game.
L2P.

SR isn't godmode. Permasin is godmode. you can't be killed. UB is godmode, you almost can't be killed.

Somethings about SR need to be changed, no argument, it's strong. But it doesn't grant invulnerability, and the lack of uber solo necro builds back that up.

upier · Jul 07, 2008, 10:52 AM // 10:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carinae Dragonblood

The problem with Sabway is the 'sharing' of SR triggers combined with the manufacturing of deaths via minions, not the energy returned. I'll agree that this mechanism enables bad players to succeed. But we've already covered this fact and suggested closing both mechanisms.

If you're STILL generating unlimited energy, even with both of those shut down, then you're doing it with outside help.

Strangely, my Sabway works because I am able to take down 3 foes in 15 secs - and not because my non-mm necros would need the minions to fill up their energy bars.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carinae Dragonblood

Show me a necro solo build that fuels itself off of SR. Surely such an almighty energy engine is being used to solo the entire game. What? It isn't? How can that be?

I'm guessing that you've left out the part of the equation regarding how much energy needed to be spent initially to get the death in the first place...which is what Upier did by shifting all the killing to the party....except in that case, the party is ALREADY killing at that rate and SR isn't having much of an impact either is it?

Yeah, you didn't get the point here. (Which was also evident by you bringing up comparable primaries (Expertise excluded of course!).
The point kinda is that unless the assassin is achieving critical strikes - he's kinda not getting "unlimited" energy.
Or is the paragon isn't shouting - he also kinda isn't getting unlimited energy.
The necro just needs to stand "next" to a dying foe.
Period.
A caster sin won't be gaining unlimited energy though CS.
Neither will a "quiet" para.

The necro on the other hand - can do pretty much whatever he wants.
Something just needs to die.
And in PvE - if "something" isn't dying - then you are probably still in an outpost.

Edit:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carinae Dragonblood

Soul Reaping IS the energy management for Necros. Mesmers and Elementalists don't get e-management from their primary attribute...hence the need to e-manage via skills. You're point is invalid on these classes because of this.

Does that mean then when you are playing a necro you could easily dump all the SR points into Inspiration and still achieve the same efficiency as before?
Or ... take GoLE.
Or better yet - dump the points into blood and take OoB.

Because surely that is what you are suggesting, right?
SR isn't much stronger then those options?
Right?

And this is where your argument fails.

Ohh and this is funny:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carinae Dragonblood

You accidentally got something right on this point...
...but then you blow it all here. You just refuse to acknowledge that PvE balance and PvP balance are entirely different beasts. To you 'balance is balance'. And it's just not true, there are different balancing goals between PvP and PvE. Something that's overpowered in PvP can be lackluster in PvE, and vice versa.

This is a PvE thread, so it focuses on PvE balance.

Thanks for the laugh.
(In case you don't get it - you can't exactly balance a game if you don't even know the state of the game or if the state of the game is so complex that it pretty much prevents balance. (Like I've previously stated - compare something as simple as a knock-down in PvP and in PvE to get the picture.))

fireflyry · Jul 07, 2008, 11:43 AM // 11:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

I don't see the difference.
SR enables people that should fail at this game to succeed.
Godmode.

Hold up.

Doesn't Sabway fail in a large number of areas?

/confused.

Carinae · Jul 07, 2008, 11:48 AM // 11:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

Strangely, my Sabway works because I am able to take down 3 foes in 15 secs - and not because my non-mm necros would need the minions to fill up their energy bars.

If you are killing at that rate, you can easily replace the N/Rt healers with Monks and never miss a beat. Soul Reaping isn't the key factor...your killing quickly is.

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

The necro on the other hand - can do pretty much whatever he wants.
Something just needs to die.
And in PvE - if "something" isn't dying - then you are probably still in an outpost.

Sigh. Yes, SR is passive. The necro can stand around doing nothing and get infinite energy....but if he's not doing anything, then SR isn't affecting the killing is it? Let alone unbalancing the entire game.

Your point seems to be that in situations where the teams is mowing monsters down like crazy, necros get crazy energy. BUT YOUR TEAM IS ALREADY KILLING AT THAT RATE. Soul Reaping isn't making a difference in the first place. Even if he doesn't cast a single spell, you're already killing at that rate. If he does cast...what? You'll kill even faster?

Even if he's running a heals bar, you could just as easily replace him with a monk at that point. You obviously aren't being challenged (because you're killing the shit out of the monsters, they can't be hurting you much)

You're contriving a situation where you ALREADY have an extreme advantage and then trying to pin the advantage on SR. That doesn't float.

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

Does that mean then when you are playing a necro you could easily dump all the SR points into Inspiration and still achieve the same efficiency as before?
Or ... take GoLE.
Or better yet - dump the points into blood and take OoB.

Because surely that is what you are suggesting, right?
SR isn't much stronger then those options?

What YOU are suggesting is that the inherent ability of a Primary attribute should be comparable to the skills within a non-primary attribute. Right? You're trying to compare the strength of SR as an e-management tool to the skills within the Inspiration line (or any other e-management line)

I'm saying that's Apples-to-Oranges.

Comparing the special, inherent ability of Necros to the skills within attributes accessible to everyone is Apples-to-Oranges, and you know it. Yes, SR is stronger than Inspiration...by design.

And all of this utterly and completely neglects the fact that SR was intended to be the energy engine for MMs....whereas inspiration was intended to fuel...what? Nothing in particular, it's just a general e-management line.

And this is where your argument fails.

kostolomac · Jul 07, 2008, 12:28 PM // 12:28

SR is easy mode for GW, just as UB and SY! paras. The timer to SR achieved nothing , SR was , is and most likely will be the most efficient e-management tool in pve. The fact that it's a primary attribute doesn't excuse it from the nerfbat , it needs to be hit just like UB and the godmode paras and dragonslash SY! warriors. If one easy mode goes down , all need to go.

And elite areas are farmed , that's the only reason why people enter them.

zwei2stein · Jul 07, 2008, 01:12 PM // 13:12

IIRC, this used to be insightful thread. What happened?

upier · Jul 07, 2008, 01:12 PM // 13:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carinae Dragonblood

If you are killing at that rate, you can easily replace the N/Rt healers with Monks and never miss a beat. Soul Reaping isn't the key factor...your killing quickly is.

Sigh. Yes, SR is passive. The necro can stand around doing nothing and get infinite energy....but if he's not doing anything, then SR isn't affecting the killing is it? Let alone unbalancing the entire game.

Your point seems to be that in situations where the teams is mowing monsters down like crazy, necros get crazy energy. BUT YOUR TEAM IS ALREADY KILLING AT THAT RATE. Soul Reaping isn't making a difference in the first place. Even if he doesn't cast a single spell, you're already killing at that rate. If he does cast...what? You'll kill even faster?

Even if he's running a heals bar, you could just as easily replace him with a monk at that point. You obviously aren't being challenged (because you're killing the shit out of the monsters, they can't be hurting you much)

You're contriving a situation where you ALREADY have an extreme advantage and then trying to pin the advantage on SR. That doesn't float.

The AI sucks. But SR is SO strong that it is able to negate that.
That's why it's godmode. You don't NEED to get better to succeed!
Isn't that the same reason why YOU feel that Ursan should be trashed?

(Let's be honest - I actually could exchange the necros. Simply because the game is simple enough for the player himself to be able to compensate for the moronic AI if the player IS good enough. BUT that's exactly the same position that a lot of people that would like Ursan to be nerfed are are in - despite being better options then Ursan - that doesn't change that something still is insane. Selective balance IS bad!)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carinae Dragonblood

What YOU are suggesting is that the inherent ability of a Primary attribute should be comparable to the skills within a non-primary attribute. Right? You're trying to compare the strength of SR as an e-management tool to the skills within the Inspiration line (or any other e-management line)

I'm saying that's Apples-to-Oranges.

Comparing the special, inherent ability of Necros to the skills within attributes accessible to everyone is Apples-to-Oranges, and you know it. Yes, SR is stronger than Inspiration...by design.

And all of this utterly and completely neglects the fact that SR was intended to be the energy engine for MMs....whereas inspiration was intended to fuel...what? Nothing in particular, it's just a general e-management line.

And this is where your argument fails.

Does that mean that the Divine favour BONUS should outheal resto skills?
Or the fact that Ursan is a PvE-ONLY ELITE skill means that it should be insane ... by design.
So it IS fine.
Right?

Look at [oob].
It's an ELITE BLOOD skill.
And yet it's outclassed by a few points in SR!
And you somehow feel that that IS balanced?

SR is worse then Ursan.
It's probably somewhere in the same category as Ursan initially but the simple fact that heroes CAN use it - pushes it just into a whole new category.

Quote:

Originally Posted by zwei2stein

IIRC, this used to be insightful thread. What happened?

As always.
Me.

But seriously - selective balance is bad.
And that is what the thread turned into. You either do it right - or the whole suggestion loses it's point.